Hello, and welcome to a brand-new series
of Julia Zemiro's Home Delivery.
Oh, hello!
Joining me this year is an eclectic bunch of comedians...
Rrrrrrrrrrrr.
..thinkers...
Gillian Triggs, you're extraordinary.
..writers, gardeners, chefs and legends,
all keen to revisit the places that formed them.
12 years of my life right here.
And we may even let them show off their secret skills.
Yep, yours.
For some the memories come rushing back...
You really like it here, don't you? I'm loving it here.
..for others, it feels just like yesterday.
This is where our cubby was, and it smells exactly the same.
I can't wait.
I would have been your friend. I know.
I am in St Marys in Western Sydney
to meet a rock star playwright, actor and comedian.
Her work has been celebrated for its humanity
and unflinching honesty, and it's bloody funny.
I am delighted to be spending the day with the wonderful Nakkiah Lui.
Hello. Hello!
Hi. Come on down.
How are you? Good. How are you?
I'm really good. You look amazing.
So do you. Yes, that's correct.
Now, we are in St Marys.
You grew up in this house. Yes.
Your parents still live here. Yes.
What were your boundaries when you grew up here?
Were you allowed to go anywhere you wanted?
Yeah, I could go to the shops if I asked.
Yes. Sometimes I went without asking.
Did you? If I ran away.
Did you ever run away? Yeah.
I used to run away probably, like, once a fortnight.
So, it became a regular thing.
Yeah, to the local church up the road.
I'd go to the park and I'd probably get scared around there,
or to the shops, and then see if my parents were following me.
And they usually weren't, and then I'd come home.
Defeated.
Yeah. No, and they'd be like, "She's come back."
Um...
This is the house you grew up in. Has it changed much?
Outside-wise it's a bit nicer.
We have some plants.
My dad was really against plants, growing up. He hated gardening.
So for a while it was just rocks,
and that was our feature rock.
And who lived here? So, there was your mum Jenny...
Yeah. Dad. Jack.
Jack. My sister Lowanna.
It was just the four of us, and me and my sister had our own rooms.
We were pretty lucky. Let's go in and have a look at those.
Yeah. Come in. I'll follow you in.
Yeah.
SONG: ♪ Jump in my car
♪ I wanna take ya home
♪ Jump in my car
♪ It's too far to walk on your own. ♪
Nakkiah Lui is a one-woman multimedia phenomenon.
We are the Aboriginal Liberation Front!
She's a prizewinning playwright, an actor and comedian,
prolific in theatre, on television and radio
and is an enthusiastic taunter of society's sacred cows.
So, Bill, Tiki, Kobi,
do you think racism exists?
Of course it doesn't! It does. Bloody oath.
Come in.
Door's still the same. Door's still the same, everyone.
Just so you know. So, our umbrella stand.
Umbrella stand.
Our Aboriginal umbrella just in case you didn't know we were Aboriginal.
I'll show you this room first because my mum is very proud of it.
It's like our First Nations room. It's a beautiful room.
You're not Aboriginal if you don't have, like, a wall of artefacts
It is so beautiful though. I mean, really.
It's a nice room, yeah. It's gorgeous.
Has this changed since you were a kid?
No, and we still don't use it. So that's...
So, would you eat dinner in here or in here?
Oh, no, never. I mean, we didn't use these parts of the house.
At all? These are just for show.
This is where I used to study and where I used to write.
And I wrote This Heaven here, which was my first play,
and then I wrote Kill the Messenger here.
And I also wrote Black Is the New...
I did the first draft or two drafts.
Nakkiah, this is a special bit of furniture and room, then.
Yeah. In that chair I used to sit.
I've seen all those plays. They're amazing.
Yeah, so...
So, you were still living at home when you wrote those shows?
Embarrassingly.
No, no, I don't mean that as anything,
but just, so, this was your office really.
Yeah, yeah.
We're gonna Heritage List this house. That's what we're gonna do.
Heritage List it. Yeah.
This is our kitchen. Great.
This is our lounge room.
This is the... So, that was the sitting room.
This is where everything took place. Yes, I can imagine.
Yes. So dinners here.
Dinner. Used to have dinner watching the TV.
And what would you talk about over dinner?
Were you people who talked about...
We talked about politics a lot.
I know that's really weird, No.
..but talking about cultural theory, race.
Like, we didn't call it that growing up,
but that was like sports in our house.
We were kind of big, like, avid readers
and my parents were really political.
That and probably Home and Away.
Was that a favourite?
Yeah, massive Home and Away fans in this house.
Unreal. These were my nan's loungers.
I can't remember the loungers we had growing up, to be honest.
Did she live with you at all? No.
No, she never lived with us. I spent a lot of time there.
I lived there for, like, you know, when we were kids,
like, for a little bit when I was very, very young,
and I used to be there every day after school.
I used to spend my holidays there.
So, that place was like a second home.
Or a mutual first home.
Mm. Now, this is your mum Jenny, nursing.
Yeah, my pop used to call her the Mona Lisa.
Because wherever you are in the room she will look at you,
and it used to freak me out when I was a kid at my nan's,
because I didn't like it.
It felt like my mum was always looking at me.
How convenient to have Mum on the wall
just in case you were playing up.
I know. That's great.
When I was, like, about six I used to sit there and stick my finger up
and see if Mum would respond to it.
I don't know, like, I thought Mum had some,
like, weird telepathic power.
Beautiful photo. Just beautiful.
We call this bit the photo gallery.
The photo gallery. Oh, is this Lowanna?
Yeah, that's my little sister Lowanna,
and that's her when she was a baby.
And that's me when I was a baby.
So, this was my room,
and I used to have, like, a little TV, VHS player in here.
I was, like, obsessed with movies.
Like, I would go...
You know, how you used to get, like, seven movies for $7?
Yes!
Like, I would do that, like, every day or, like, every two days.
And I, you know, would read about films
and I'd read a lot of books.
I knew I liked writing and I liked acting,
I just never thought that that...
Like, I didn't know anyone in that career path.
So, how do you do that? What do you even study?
But that idea of ever being in that world seemed so far away,
and it made me really sad.
I remember being about, like, I think, like, maybe 14 or 15,
but maybe... it was around that age,
and I used to have these lace curtains.
I didn't always have these blinds here.
And I remember looking at my skin
and, like, looking at myself in the mirror
and just thinking, like, comparing it to the curtains
and just being like, "You're too dark," looking in that mirror.
Like, that mirror, and just being like, "You're too fat."
Like, "You don't look like anyone who
"is going to the Oscars or is on Home and Away or..."
You know, like, I couldn't...
I didn't see anyone who looked like me,
so it just seemed like that would never happen.
Which is probably why I went to law school.
But my room was like my little safe haven.
You know, I used to walk up from the bus stop,
down the street and the kids from the other school
who shared our bus would, like, yell things at me.
They'd call me Fatty, Fatty Boomba and stuff,
and I remember I'd try not to cry
and then I'd get home and I'd, like, put on a movie
and just kind of forget about that.
So, it was my little safe haven, yeah.
Did you have a peaceful childhood?
I grew up with a bit of privilege.
Like, we were very working class,
but I always had a roof over my head, food in my belly,
we would go on holidays, we had a good education.
I never wanted for anything.
You know, me and my sister were treated
as these, like, prized possessions.
We were very loved.
But unfortunately that's not the same
for a lot of my family, and really close family.
There is a lot of poverty, so we would you know...
Surrounded by chaos you once called it.
Yeah. Like quiet here but chaos around you.
You know, and there was, like, those things like incarceration rates,
poverty, you know, death.
They were very, very close, you know.
I think it's made me a good writer.
Don't judge other people
because you could have so easily been there yourself.
You don't know what life they've lived or what they've been through.
But how old were you when you started going, "I'd like to do some acting,
"I'd like to perform"?
I went to Canada when I was 15
and I was, like, the first Aboriginal student
at this international school and there were, like, over 200 kids.
All these teenagers who would have, like, national address,
who could, like, speak languages.
I don't know how to speak my parents' languages.
I'm not a very good dancer.
So I was like, "How do I talk about
"what it is to be an Aboriginal person in Australia
"and I don't have any of these things"?
So I wrote a play - like, this sort of one-woman show called Pride,
and then I performed it to the school for two nights
and I made everybody come back the second night.
For me, acting was a way of being able to, like, be myself
in front of people because I felt like I... I could...
..I didn't know how to do that in, like, a normal social setting.
I didn't know how to articulate myself or talk about things.
How to be yourself. Just learning how to be myself.
OK, Julia, this is my parents.
Oh, hello. Jack and Jenny.
How do you do? Lovely to meet you.
Hello. Hi, Jenny.
Let's talk about Nakkiah, shall we?
What is Nakkiah's full name?
Nakkiah Nellie We'ama Hope Lui.
And what do the names mean?
Nakkiah means "special one" and We'ama is "grandmother's daughter"
and Nellie was after a grandmother, a great-grandmother,
and Hope was after Days of Our Lives.
My dad put in Hope.
He wanted Hope in there because he was a Days of Our Lives fan.
So what values do you think you tried to instil in your girls?
Well, I wanted them to be strong,
to be humble,
and to always question things.
Never take anything for granted.
When did you realise that writing was going to become such a strong skill?
You were maybe 10 or something and I found on the computer
there was this story about a couch, a blue couch,
and it was the people who come and sat on the blue couch
and a bit of their story, and I said to her, "Where did this come from?"
And she said, "I wrote it,"
and I ended up giving her a... sort of a lesson on plagiarism
and saying, "Well, you know, you can't steal people's work."
She did write it but I felt really bad about it.
It was so good that you were so surprised. Oh.
I thought that she actually stole it.
Was she a confident child? Yes.
Oh, Jack's gone straight in. Yes. Well, she was over the top.
Over the top! OTT.
She was very naughty. Was she?
I think there's this story that you told Gabe, my fiance,
when we first met, and it was when you were driving me in the car
and I wouldn't stop crying.
Went to pull up, they were like, "Nakkiah, stop it,"
because I would really go for it and yell.
They were like, "Nakkiah, stop."
Like, "Stop it right now or we'll pull over
"and you're going to get a smack on the bum."
So every time they go to pull over, they'd go to pull over
and I'd yell, "Mum, no, no, I'm sorry, don't. Stop. No."
So on the fourth time that they pulled over,
Dad gets in the back seat, I get a slap on the bum.
And so I'm quiet, and they think that I'm, like, you know,
I've settled down, and as soon as we got back onto the highway,
I just say to him from the back seat, "Fuck you, Jackie."
(LAUGHS)
I think that, though, is the attitude that I've taken
and I haven't really changed. No, she hasn't.
It's, like, it's the same.
Well, what are you gonna do? Like, once you've been punished...
Like... What are you going to do? True.
Like, what's the worst that could happen?
It's done. I'll just say it louder
and I'll do it worse.
Well, thank you so much. You're welcome.
Oh, what's this fabulous car we've got up ahead?
OK, it's a Ford Laser. Yes.
The car we had when I was really young with my dad, my mum,
my sister, me and my nan squeezed into the back seat.
Fantastic. Yeah, it was a tight ride.
Oh, cool! (STARTS ENGINE)
Oh, nice. Nice.
OK, you ready? Burnout!
We're off. Off to school.
Are cars important to your family?
Ah, not, like, we weren't, like, car people,
but we relied a lot on cars.
Just because out west here
there's not a lot of, like, really good public transport.
And didn't your dad once get arrested for being in a car?
Yeah, he got a brand-new car and, yeah, he got... they arrested him
on suspicion of driving a stolen car
because they didn't think that this black man could have a new car.
Me and my mum and my sister are fairly, like, fair skinned,
whereas my dad is quite dark
and the way he gets treated compared to us
even just going into... even to this day,
not as much as when I was growing up but...
This is my school here.
In restaurants he... it's very, very different.
OK, great, well, this is my school. Great!
St Marys North Public School.
Yeah, St Marys North.
North St Marys.
Do you remember the motto? "Work earnestly, live honestly."
Yeah, but we used to say "good work, good manners and do your best".
And you have.
Well, I still think that to myself now,
especially when I'm really stressed about something
or I feel, like, upset.
I'm like, "Nup, just, like, good work, good manners, do your best."
You've done it. Do your best.
And is it true that at assembly
your mum and dad gave you a bit of a heads up
saying, "We don't stand for the National Anthem,
"your choice if you do." Yeah.
I remember talking to my friend, who was, like, my best friend
all through primary school, Joan,
and she was like, "Why aren't you standing for the National Anthem?"
Like, you know, everybody would stand up.
Like, we were little kids and I remember going,
"Well, I think that, you know, it says 'for we are young and free'.
"Australia isn't young, not everybody's free."
And, um, then we had this... I can remember,
and she was like, "Well, I'm not going to stand either."
Joan!
And then, like, a bunch, like, all these kids
just stopped, like, standing up for the National Anthem. (LAUGHS)
So we started singing ABBA. ABBA!
My favourite. Yeah, and that was the assembly.
Let's go into the kindergarten room.
Oh after you. Yeah, wow.
This was where our cubby was. Your little cubbies to put your bags.
Yeah, I remember hanging up my bag, and it smells exactly the same.
True? Yeah.
That's really emotional.
I remember I had to... there used to be a bookshelf
and I'd go and sit in the corner
because I got into an argument with Sally.
All I know is that Sally was wrong
and I hope she can live with herself.
It is such a lovely room, though.
I have to say kinder classes
always feel very safe and lovely, don't they?
Yeah. I used to have this... yeah, this coat.
Oh, did you? Is it the same?
It was actually the same coat, with the zipper.
And were you kind of like a good kid?
Were you a kid that got into the work? You enjoyed the work?
Yeah. I really... I really liked everything but sport.
Yes. It was a good little school.
Multicultural? Very.
Um, not... I think it's probably more so now but when I was growing,
when I was here, it was mainly... there was quite a lot of black kids.
Because it is such a small community,
like, you knew who... which black kid
and how they were related to you.
I remember, like, my dad would come in
and play the didgeridoo at assembly sometimes
and I'd have to be there with the clap sticks,
because I was really into that.
I guess one of the great things about North St Marys Primary
was that, you know, a lot of kids in this neighbourhood,
like, were kind of all poor.
You know, were, like, all working class kind of poor.
Do you know what I mean? So equal in that way.
So we were equal and I think going to high school
I became really aware that, like, some kids have money
and that not everybody likes Aboriginals.
Mm. So is that the first time that you really clock it?
The first time I got called an abo was not...
..it was just around the corner in the playground.
We were playing tips,
and that was the first time I had ever heard that word.
And I asked my parents what it meant and they had to explain it.
Whereas in high school I heard abo jokes every single day.
I would hear... and it was, like, my friends, like, my classmates
who would say these abo jokes
and I'd say, "Hey, like, that's not... I'm Aboriginal,"
and they'd be like, "Yeah, but you're...
"Like, we're not talking about you. You're different."
Oh, right. Like, you know, so it was just...
So they'd make it different. OK. Yeah.
Yeah, which is something, you know, I talk to a lot of my friends now
who are Aboriginal and we all heard the exact same thing
and we all heard the same jokes,
and it's funny - my parents heard the same jokes
and I talk to some of my nieces and nephews now who are in high school
and they hear the same jokes.
Right. Shall we go to your nan's? Yeah. Let's go.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm a bit nervous about it.
So this is a house that you came to after school every day
with your sister Lowanna?
Yeah, yeah.
It was different then. It was a bit, you know...
How did it look different? Well, my nan was very house proud,
so she had all rose gardens.
This was all rose gardens.
That was all garden and this chair that had this wicker,
sort of, like, an old outdoor furniture seat she used to sit on.
So when we'd come home from school some days she'd be sitting
on the front bench, yeah, waiting for us.
Shall we go in?
Yeah, yeah.
(CRIES) Aww.
Yeah. (SNIFFLES)
I haven't been here since she died. Yeah.
She'd tell me not to cry right now, so I'm not gonna cry.
She'd be like, "Get it together."
So, that picture of Mum was just there.
In the nursing outfit? Yeah.
And, um... And so you'd come here every day?
Yeah, yep, and I'd spend school holidays here and this was...
This was the little room and this was her room
and this was the room that I used to stay in.
And they put this bathroom in after she had her fall.
So tell us about that. The house got termites.
White termites and in this room, the little room,
there used to be these nests.
Really? Yeah.
They were about half the size of basketballs. They were huge.
They were eating, like, the house.
It was when they cut the down the old ADH side or whatever it was.
They put up a development so they had to cut all the bush down
and a lot of the termites came into the homes
and these were, like, all fibro, and so we would call...
This was an Aboriginal Housing house.
The agreement was with Housing Commission
that Housing Commission would have to repair the homes.
So over a year my mum called up, and me,
saying, "Can you please come fix the termites?"
And what happened was they started to eat away at her floorboards.
She was older.
She was pretty independent but, you know, still older
and my mum was trying to... my mum would tell them,
"If you don't fix the floorboards she's gonna...
"she's gonna fall through the floor."
'Cause it was just there, where it was, and, um... "and she'll die."
And then my nan would be like, "Jennifer, stop it."
Like, "Don't say I'm gonna..." You know, like, joke about it.
Like, "I'm not gonna die," and then... then one day she fell here.
It was just along here.
It actually happened. She fell through the floor.
Had a really bad fall, and in about a year or so she was dead.
And they wouldn't let us fix it because otherwise...
Why is that? You need... it has to be approved.
Right. She wouldn't come live with us.
But also this is her... this is where she nursed my pop.
So he was really... he passed away from emphysema
and I was really little
and I'd, like, make him these little microwave dishes -
like, you know, the little pasta dishes
and I'd go and sit on the bed with him
and, you know, have food with him.
It was really hard too and we'd take turns spending the night
so she'd never be here alone after that.
After the accident, yeah. And she was in and out of hospital.
Like, she was... her bones all fractured
in a way that they couldn't, um...
..in her shoulders that they couldn't operate.
But they healed all wrong, so she couldn't move her arms,
you know, she couldn't wash herself.
I think it was really hard because she was so independent.
Um, but I remember...
..sleeping in there
and she'd have the door open, I'd have my door open,
and she's be up all night just crying, like, sobbing with pain.
And I'd sit there and she wouldn't want me to come in after a bit
because she just wanted to try and get to sleep
but I don't... I don't even... you know, I'm not religious
but I'd just sit there and, like...
So dramatic, but, like, never in my life
have I ever wanted there to be a god
as much as I was when I was sitting there...
Hearing her in pain.
Just hearing someone you love not being able to move,
just in pain, excruciating pain,
and not being able to do anything about it.
It was frustrating.
It still feels... I wrote a play about it.
So, yeah, in Kill The Messenger. Yeah.
What did it feel like or what did it do?
I don't know. I still miss her every day.
You know, Mum can't drive past here.
Mum hasn't been down this street since she died.
Um, and I still can hear her cry
and, like, no play will ever...
I dunno, it's, like, you just don't want that to happen again
but, you know, it probably is happening to other people
in different ways.
What traits do you think you get from your grandmother?
Some bad ones - like, she was pretty chubby
and she had small fingers, so... like, and stubby legs.
I got that for sure.
I think she was really kind
and she, you know, stuck up for what she believed in
and she was funny and brave and she was fun.
That was the thing she taught me most of all.
Even when she was on her death bed,
she said, "What can you do if you can't laugh?"
She said that the day... I was the last person with her in hospital.
I was the last person who saw her before she passed.
She always just wanted people to laugh, and so I think I have that.
Well, I don't think... I try and have that.
It's, like, just try and have fun.
You know, she'd tell me to get over myself.
Really, that's what she would say.
She'd be like, "Stop effin' crying, Nakkiah," you know?
Probably give me some biscuits, which is why I emotionally eat,
but anyway, so...
Well, you've been very strong coming back here.
Yeah, sorry for that.
Not at all. Not at all.
It's very cathartic... cathartic therapy session,
all caught on screen.
Let's go to Belvoir. Yeah.
There it is. All those posters up there.
I know. I know.
Yeah. All women.
I know. It's amazing. Indigenous, loving it.
Indigenous women. Yeah.
Do you still get a bit nervous walking into this theatre?
Um, I get excited. Oh.
Like, this theatre especially. So, the walk down in.
The walk down in. Yeah.
So, you had your first play performed here?
Yeah.
I had my first play performed downstairs Belvoir, just there.
There.
And then my second play was upstairs.
Upstairs in the big house, everyone. In the big theatre.
I have to say I always love coming up here
because all the posters are here and there is such a history, isn't there?
Oh look there's mine. There's yours here.
There's Kill The Messenger.
Did you do that? No. We really didn't.
Julia, did you do this? This is...
No. Oh, my God.
Look how determined you look. You've got a real "don't you..."
I've got my mother's face there. Have you?
Oh, it's so great here.
It is.
Let's get on that set even though we don't belong on it just now.
Why theatre? Why did you choose theatre?
Because, you know, you talked before about films a lot
and watching the Oscars and then you did some theatre.
How did that start?
I started writing for theatre basically there was,
I wrote a play for Short + Sweet in 2006.
Oh, you did. Yeah. 2006.
And my parents were in that.
You got your parents to be the actors?
Yeah. I didn't have any actors.
Yeah. It was called...
So you got Jenny and Jack in to do a bit of acting.
Yeah. I was on my break from school and I got them to be in it.
Unreal. Um, they were terrible
And I got a review... Yeah. My parents are not good actors.
And the review in the Telegraph said
"What it lacks in theatrical finesse it makes up for
"with the lucidity of Nakkiah Lui's writing."
But I loved the "what it lacked in theatrical finesse".
How dare they.
Such a nice way to be like, "the acting was terrible".
But they did it for you. It was very nice of them to do it.
Exactly. It was amazing. They got agent offers.
So that was really... maybe not as bad as I say.
But what it kind of, what I really like about it was
just how easy it is to, like, tell a story to people.
You don't need to have something be amazing
for the voice to kind of,
for the message or for the story to come through
and you can do it with two untrained community workers
and still have people really enjoy watching it.
So that is just how I got into kind of writing.
I started doing stuff with ATYP
and then the next show I got a residency at Belvoir.
So it all happened really fast.
But it was really serendipitous I think.
Well, look, we are in a theatre
and we're going to continue this conversation downstairs
because someone is coming in to rehearse.
I know. How selfish of them. I know.
It's five o'clock. The people have to rehearse.
Let's go to the bar. Awesome.
What makes you laugh out loud?
I love pretty much, like black men, Jewish women.
Like, the stand-up comedians I grew up on.
Now you're a Bette Midler fan? Are you not?
Yeah. Love her.
Yeah. I mean, what is there not to love?
I know, right?
You know, one of the biggest things I find as an Aboriginal artist,
this kind of respect about "We're seeing an Aboriginal play,
"you know, so it's an Aboriginal issue,
"it's a really serious political issue."
Right.
And it's... that's kind of you're looking down on work.
You know, you're holding up like this kind of noble savage.
So, I want it to, you know, with my work,
is have people, you know, laugh with Aboriginal people.
And I think if you laugh with them, you will like them.
I do believe that's a really special time when you're 12.
You're starting to get all the feels.
What would you say to your 12-year-old self?
Well, yeah, fail gloriously. Mmm.
Like, what's the worst that can happen?
Like, or actually be really nihilistic
and then be like no-one will remember you.
Like, this entire, all of your neuroses,
all of these things that, you know,
No-one will remember it.
No-one will care. No-one.
No-one actually cares about it now more than you do.
Because I think, you know, realising that like,
having very little stakes.
Knowing that life just passes you by once
and it can go so quickly.
You stop really caring about what other people think
and you kind of just, you know, do things
that I think kind of make you happy or make your life worth living
or uphold your values.
You are an incredibly brave young woman.
It's been a delight spending the day with you.
I want to help you start relaxing.
We've had a long day. Shall we, shall we hit the wine while we're here?
Yes please. Excellent.
I was hoping you would ask. Thank you for having me.
Thank you, Julia. An absolutely fascinating guest.
Thank you.
Alright. Let's go up to the bar. Let's do it. Alright.